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Post by WalksInSpirit on Jun 8, 2006 17:06:56 GMT -5
Thursday Afternoon Chat: 06-08-06 "Was Jesus A Fraud? The Code & Cayce Reveal..." (02:34:09) (Host-Blu) Ok , if you all are ready I will start official chat with prayer. (02:34:27) (Host-Blu) Please center for a moment (02:34:52) (Host-Blu) Heavenly Father, Thank You for this day, this life, this opportunity. As humble as it is we desire to use this life to serve You. Send me, use me, that Thy will be done. (02:35:02) (Host-Blu) Let Thy truth which is in my heart be made manifest as the light that is reflected in a multifaceted diamond, that I, that we, may be used as channels of service according to Your divine will. (02:35:11) (Host-Blu) Search our hearts and minds and that every facet may be filled with wonder, love and faith in Your divine grace. We thank you Jesus for your Love and sacrifice. In your name we pray, Amen (02:35:23) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Nunwe (02:35:31) (merlin) Amen (02:35:33) (diane) Amen (02:35:35) (Lynn) Oh, my Lord, my total agreement. amen (02:35:56) (ron) amen (02:36:46) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Today, we thought we'd talk some about The DaVinci Code, and present some views on it from the Catholic Church, and from the Cayce Readings. (02:37:12) (Host-Blu) We love to hear your opinions so do not hesitate to jump in! (02:37:31) (Lynn) ty (02:37:33) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Right! Feel free to comment, ask questions, etc. at any time! (02:38:12) (Host-WalksInSpirit) We'll begin with the Catholic Church's viewpoint on The DaVinci Code. (02:38:21) (Host-Blu) How many have read the book or seen the movie? (02:38:51) (Lynn) I have wanted to but haven´t found time. Now I´ll get to know about it. ty (02:38:52) (ron) just several documenteries...from a more objective view (02:39:07) (merlin) read it (02:39:10) (diane) same here, ron (02:39:31) (Host-WalksInSpirit) HOW DARK THE CON OF MAN: SOME RESPONSES TO THE DA VINCI CODE (02:39:43) (Host-WalksInSpirit) By Archbishop George H. Niederauer, D.D., Ph.D (02:39:55) (Host-WalksInSpirit) “A lie is half way round the world while the truth is still putting its boots on.” Mark Twain (02:40:05) (Lynn) lol (02:40:19) (Host-WalksInSpirit) My first reaction to Dan Brown’s novel, “The Da Vinci Code”, was: “It’s a work of fiction, a thriller, a page-turner. Everybody knows that.” I was wrong. A young friend of mine met a classmate from Catholic high school who told him that she was seriously thinking of giving up her faith after reading “The Da Vinci Code”. (02:40:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) My friend said, “You’d give up your faith because of a novel?” She answered, “Oh, but it’s all true!” (02:41:01) (Lynn) I´ve been seriously tempted also. But I tell God, if you aren´t real, I´ll make you up. I need you! (02:41:08) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Oh, but it’s not! Soon the movie version of “The Da Vinci Code” will open around the country. Carl Olson has shown us that this bestseller works on several levels: mystery novel, romance, thriller, conspiracy theory and spiritual manifesto. There’s a good chance that the movie will work in many of those same ways. (02:41:34) (Host-WalksInSpirit) As Amy Wellborn points out, “The Da Vinci Code” is fiction but the author makes assertions about history and presents them as widely accepted facts, introduced by such phrases as “historians say” and “scholars understand.” (02:42:04) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Olson lists several claims made by Brown: Jesus was a mere man, and the earliest Christians didn’t believe he was divine; Christianity is a despicable sham; all claims to objective religious truth are to be avoided. These assertions demand a non-fiction response from Christian believers. Now some readers might say that the faithful are merely reacting out of fear and anger toward a book that challenges their faith. (02:42:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) That’s why it is helpful to listen to critics writing from a literary perspective, without a religious slant. One such critic is Laura Miller, in The New York Times Book Review (“The Da Vinci Con,” February 22, 2004, p. 23): (02:43:16) (Host-WalksInSpirit) “ . . . what seems increasingly clear is that ‘“The Da Vinci Code”,’ like ‘Holy Blood, Holy Grail,’ is based on a notorious hoax.” Miller says that much of the material about Mary Magdalen and the Priory of Sion depends on fabricated documents planted in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris by one Pierre Plantard, “an inveterate rascal with a criminal record for fraud and affiliation with wartime anti-Semitic and right-wing groups.” (02:43:26) (Host-Blu) LOL @ Lynn (02:43:47) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Miller concludes: “The only thing more powerful than a worldwide conspiracy, it seems, is our desire to believe in one.” (02:44:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Here are some of the most important falsehoods in “The Da Vinci Code”, and alongside are the matching truths that, as Twain said, are now “putting their boots on.” (02:44:24) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “ . . . almost everything our fathers taught us about Christ is false!” (02:44:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: Ditto for everything Dan Brown “teaches” about Christ! Brown contends that, until the Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.), “Jesus was viewed by his followers as a mortal prophet . . . a great and powerful man, but a man nonetheless. Not the Son of God.” According to Brown, the emperor Constantine made Jesus divine in the fourth century. (02:45:15) (diane) Not (02:45:24) (Host-WalksInSpirit) However, in St. Paul’s Letter to the Philippians (c. 55 A.D.) Jesus is portrayed as God’s Son and worshipped as Lord. In St. John’s Gospel, written almost two hundred years before Constantine was born, Thomas the Apostle sees the risen Jesus Christ and exclaims. “My Lord and my God!” (02:45:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Brown conveniently does not mention Docetism, a heresy circulating in the first century that claimed Jesus Christ was only God, and not human as well. (02:46:21) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “Jesus as a married man makes infinitely more sense than our standard Biblical view of Jesus as a bachelor.” [Here’s why] “Because Jesus was a Jew, and the social decorum during that time virtually forbid a Jewish man to be unmarried.” “ . . . according to Jewish custom celibacy was condemned.” (02:46:32) (Host-WalksInSpirit) “If Jesus was not married at least one of the Bible’s gospels would have mentioned it and offered some explanation for his unnatural state of bachelorhood.” (02:46:36) (merlin) according to cayce jesus the man , christ the pattern (02:46:56) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: Jesus was unmarried, as were the prophet Jeremiah, John the Baptist, the Apostle Paul, and members of the Essene community. The words of Jesus from the Cross, entrusting his mother to the care of John the Apostle, suggest the truth of this assertion. (02:47:24) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Brown stresses the importance of the social decorum at that time. If “social decorum” had been a high priority for Jesus he wouldn’t have healed people on the Sabbath, talked to the Samaritan woman at the well, knocked over the moneychangers’ tables in the Temple, or socialized often with public sinners. (02:47:52) (Host-Blu) My kind of Guy (02:48:02) (diane) LOL (02:48:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) As for a gospel explanation for Jesus’ “unnatural state,” here is Jesus’ teaching on celibacy, from Matthew’s Gospel: “Some are incapable of marriage because they are born so; some, because they were made so by others; some because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” (Mt. 19:12) (02:48:36) (diane) amen to that (02:48:41) (ron) i believe the readings said that at the lower levels, i think, were married and had families...but i don't know what the outer levels consisted of accept to offer various forms of support (02:49:10) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “The Bible as we know it today was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great.” (02:49:37) (diane) one of his bishops, anyway (02:49:45) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: By 150 A.D. (175 years before Constantine) Christian writers were listing the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and Paul’s letters as the most reliable sources of information about the life of Jesus and the faith of the apostles. (02:49:59) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Also, as Laura Miller observes in the New York Times, Brown tries to have it both ways in “The Da Vinci Code”: “Sources—such as the New Testament—are qualified as ‘questionable’ and derivative when they contradict the conspiracy theory, then microscopically scrutinized for inconsistencies that might support it.” (02:50:35) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: According to Brown “Peter’s party” among the early Christians slandered and demonized Mary Magdalen and, through her, all women. (02:50:48) (ron) this is a novel correct? (02:51:00) (Host-Blu) "microscopically " ...that woman needs a lesson in how to write so you can understand what she says... (02:51:13) (Host-Blu) right ron, but people are not treating it that way (02:51:14) (Lynn) I say, given sufficient time to gather evidence, you can prove or disprove anything and its opposite. That´s just the way things are. I choose what I believe. (02:51:17) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: From the beginning, the Church has honored Magdalen for her faithfulness at the foot of the Cross and at the tomb. Christian writers described her as “the apostle to the apostles” because she brought them the good news of Christ’s resurrection. (02:51:55) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Ron, in this novel, this guy puts in bold print "FACT" and lays out these points in the book. (02:52:11) (ron) in my opion belief and truth are two different things (02:52:15) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The Catholic Church celebrates the feast of St. Mary Magdalen on July 22nd each year, and many churches are dedicated to her as their patron. In the Diocese of Salt Lake City the Cathedral is named for St. Mary Magdalen, and she is the heavenly patron of the entire diocese. That’s a strange sort of demonizing. (02:52:31) (ron) ok blu and WIS (02:52:59) (Host-Blu) perhaps this is why "truth" evolves Ron (02:52:59) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “ . . . every faith in the world is based on fabrication. That is the definition of faith—acceptance of that which we imagine to be true, that which we cannot prove.” (02:53:13) (Lynn) o (02:53:26) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: That’s an unbeliever’s definition of faith. How does a believer define faith? Perhaps as “a human response to God,” or, “a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed.” (02:53:39) (Host-WalksInSpirit) A fair-minded person would let a socialist give his definition of capitalism, but he or she would let the capitalist give his definition as well. Believers and unbelievers should be treated the same way. (02:53:42) (Lynn) I choose to believe in you and to believe in Jesus. (02:54:02) (ron) i don't think that truth evolves...it is already in a state of perfection...it is our awareness that evolves in my opinion (02:54:14) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “Virtually all the elements of Catholic ritual—the miter, the altar, the doxology and communion, the act of ‘God-eating,’ were taken directly from earlier pagan mystery religions.” (02:54:20) (merlin) agree ron (02:54:26) (diane) me too (02:54:41) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: Oh, dear. It’s such a long-established fact that the roots of Catholic ritual are in Jewish worship, which is not surprising, inasmuch as all the first Christians were Jews, not former pagans. (02:54:55) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The Temple in Jerusalem had altars; the doxology is rooted in Psalms 8, 66 and 150; communion had its roots in the Jewish Passover, celebrated by Jesus and twelve other Jews at the Last Supper. (02:55:31) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “Originally Christianity honored the Jewish Sabbath of Saturday, but Constantine [4th century] shifted it to coincide with the pagan’s veneration day of the sun. To this day most churchgoers attend services on Sunday morning with no idea that they are there on account of the pagan sun god’s weekly tribute—Sunday.” (02:56:12) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week, a Sunday, so the weekly Eucharist was celebrated from the beginning on “the Lord’s Day,” a Sunday. (02:56:25) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Here is St. Justin Martyr, writing before 165 A.D.: “We hold our common assembly on the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead.” (02:56:34) (Host-Blu) I did not know that about Sunday (02:56:37) (ron) i thought it was we were to begin with the Sonsday (02:56:51) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The names for the days of the week do come from the names of pagan gods such as Woden, Thor, Freia and Saturn. However, someone who goes to Thursday evening Bible study in 2006 is not therefore honoring the god Thor. Incidentally, the only thing Constantine did about this matter, in 321 A.D., was to declare Sunday a day of rest. (02:57:15) (Host-Blu) wish it still was! (02:57:30) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “The Church launched a smear campaign against the pagan gods and goddesses, recasting their divine symbols as evil.” (02:57:34) (Host-Blu) Where is Constantine when you need him (02:57:52) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: Well, that’s what monotheistic religions do—they oppose the worship of dozens or hundreds of greater and lesser gods. For example, Jews maligned Moloch, and discouraged the people from sacrificing newborn infants by tossing them into the fiery stove in the belly of the god. (02:57:54) (ron) yes...it still is my day of rest (02:58:10) (ron) a time to withdraw from the cares of the world (02:58:14) (Host-WalksInSpirit) It’s hard to cast that divine symbol as anything but evil. Islam also replaced the worship of minor deities in the lands to which it spread. (02:58:26) (Lynn) You believe in Jesus or we will kill you in the name of the God of Love. (02:58:35) (Host-WalksInSpirit) DVC: “The Church burned at the stake over five million women [as witches].” (02:59:02) (Host-WalksInSpirit) TRUTH: Genuine scholars agree that most people executed as witches (20% were men) were put to death between 1500 and 1800 A.D. These historians estimate the total at 40,000, with an upward limit of 50,000. Most of those were poor, ordinary and unpopular citizens, not strong, independent-minded women as described by Brown. (02:59:18) (Lynn) They burn the saints and then declare them saints. lol (02:59:32) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Their accusers were usually their fellow citizens, not clergymen. More than half of those accused were acquitted. Some witches were executed by Catholics, some by Protestants, most by governments. (02:59:44) (ron) whats the difference...men or women death by fire(02:59:58) (Lynn) yes, (03:00:23) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Salem, Massachusetts in the seventeenth century, for example, could hardly be described as Catholic-dominated. Several popes condemned the practice of executing witches. Still, it doesn’t seem uncharacteristic of Brown to multiply the total number of victims by 100, and then blame them all on the Catholic Church. (03:00:43) (ron) who carried out the executions? (03:00:58) (diane) governments, partly (03:01:04) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Some witches were executed by Catholics, some by Protestants, most by governments. (03:01:13) (Lynn) neighbors, jealous, vindictive, wanted their property (03:01:24) (ron) did they go before a tribunal?...and who would they be? (03:01:48) (diane) or fanatice teenage giggly girls pointing fingers (03:01:55) (Lynn) yes (03:02:09) (ron) the Salem witch hunt i believe (03:02:18) (Host-WalksInSpirit) They went on trial and in one case I remember, this group of teenage girls accused this woman of witchcraft simply as a prank. (03:02:21) (diane) Puritans (03:02:32) (Host-WalksInSpirit) But, she got burned . (03:02:35) (diane) right WIS (03:02:41) (Lynn) Michel and my friend Pam were both executed. I figure I may well have been an inquisitor. I still have that in me. (03:02:50) (Host-WalksInSpirit) WHY ARE THESE LIES SO EASILY BELIEVED? (03:03:02) (Lynn) Because they are interesting. (03:03:08) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Why then are so many people so easily misled? Amy Wellborn suggests that most people know very little about the historical origins of Christianity, so they are “easy targets for a cleverly packaged, sensationalized set of lies.” (03:03:19) (diane) Because it's easier to accept than divinity of Christ? (03:03:23) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Carl Olson suggests several traits of postmodern culture that make a book like “The Da Vinci Code” attractive: a relativistic attitude toward truth and religion; a dislike for religious authority; a fondness for conspiracy-based claims; a belief that reality is malleable and can be customized to each person’s wishes. (03:03:52) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Adam Gopnik, writing in The New Yorker, takes a more ironic view: “A cultural anthropologist, a hundred years from now, will doubtless find, in the unprecedented success of ‘“The Da Vinci Code”,’ during the time of a supposed religious revival, that, in the Elvis mode, what a lot of Americans mean by spirituality is simply an immense openness to occult superstitions of all kinds.” (03:04:08) (ron) well, i guess religion and kings wanted to dominate the world in ay way that is possible
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Post by WalksInSpirit on Jun 8, 2006 17:08:19 GMT -5
(03:04:14) (Host-WalksInSpirit) IS “THE DA VINCI CODE” ANTI-CATHOLIC? (03:04:17) (Lynn) Those of you who know what frears and threats of hell can do, might understand some of the inquisitors viewpoint. (03:04:30) (Host-WalksInSpirit) “I have been educated to enmity toward everything that is Catholic, and sometimes, in consequence of this, I find it much easier to discover Catholic faults than Catholic virtues.” (Mark Twain, Innocents Abroad) (03:04:39) (Lynn) Better to let them suffer temporary burning then to burn in hell forever. (03:04:41) (merlin) i don't think so Wis (03:05:01) (diane) interesting Lynn (03:05:04) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Let’s begin by admitting that anti-Catholicism is as American as, well, Mark Twain. Of course Twain was more honest about himself and everything else than most of us are. (03:05:04) (ron) but i do seperate religion and God...God is perfect but religion is trying to be perfect...trying for 1500 years (03:05:26) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The Harvard historian Arthur Schlesinger, Sr., remarked to the American Catholic historian, John Tracy Ellis, “I regard the prejudice against your church as the deepest bias in the history of the American people.” The late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Democrat of New York, used to describe the anti-Catholicism of a few decades ago as the last socially acceptable form of bigotry in the United States. Such witnesses can’t easily be waved aside. (03:05:30) (Lynn) I think I was an inquisitor. That is the view I remember. Better to scare many out of hell and victims repent then spend forever in hell. (03:05:33) (Lynn) I was wrong. (03:05:38) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Such witnesses can’t easily be waved aside. (03:05:53) (ron) yes lynn...i see that you are still carrying your sword.... (03:05:55) (diane) Ever gone into a Christian Chat room and told them you're Catholic? (03:06:12) (Lynn) ron, I have never claimed to be an innocent. (03:06:22) (diane) It's a shark tank, and wow do they bite!! lol (03:06:28) (Lynn) But I look at the truth about me and forgive me cause Jesus does. (03:06:35) (Lynn) And you, my brother, do you forgive me? (03:06:45) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Merlin, the very fiber of this "novel" is Anti-Catholic, because of how it is presenting these fabrications as facts and making the Catholic Church look terrible. (03:07:18) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Catholics in this country have even had a Dan Brown-style experience before this present one. In 1836 “The Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk” was first published. It was a sensational success, and stayed in print for many years. One mob even burned down a convent school, partly because of that book. (03:07:19) (merlin) Wis , who or what originally made statements against what brown wrote in the code book. (03:07:43) (ron) diane. i have my own views which is largely influenced by history...but i totally disagree with that chat room attitudes you just mentioned above (03:07:45) (Host-Blu) We are not Catholic, but have great respect for the Catholic church. As Cayce said it is the closeest thing to the early church we have (03:07:47) (diane) didn't know that book, WIS (03:08:12) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The first thing I saw against it was a 60 Minutes expose that debunked it on it's "factual" claims. (03:08:24) (diane) I know ron...but a chat monitor had to jump in and save me (03:08:40) (Host-Blu) we like you Di! (03:08:50) (ron) see...how nice...you had a protector (03:08:55) (diane) we still email and talk...she's trying to convert me to Baptist. lol (03:09:03) (Host-Blu) LOL (03:09:10) (merlin) and was there really any factual claims made by brown at all within the book? (03:09:12) (Host-Blu) don't do it Diane! (03:09:12) (ron) you are safe with us :) (03:09:15) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And now, you can turn on TBN and see every Christian tv evangelist debunking it for the same reasons. (03:09:24) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Not one, Merlin. (03:09:29) (Lynn) One of the things I most enjoyed about converting to catholocism was the frantic response of my protestant friends. I now the Bible well enough, I could argue my points. Since then, I have given up arguing. So what? (03:09:36) (Host-WalksInSpirit) This guy did absolutely no research. (03:09:47) (Host-Blu) But he "said "fact" at the begining (03:09:49) (Host-WalksInSpirit) That is my major beef with the book. (03:10:05) (ron) thats what i mean...people are chasing after a religion instead of God...but, of course, my views are geared more to the Readings (03:10:06) (diane) Yes, and a good beef it is (03:10:27) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Everything he says as FACT has been systematically proven as false by mainstream media, historical experts, and religious experts. (03:10:34) (merlin) there u go , he did not intentionally write te book as truth but as fiction . (03:10:50) (ron) right merlin (03:10:55) (Host-Blu) The proof is in the pudding, the intent of the book is confused and that is the result that it has created, confusion. (03:11:12) (Host-WalksInSpirit) But Merlin... he inserts a claim in the book that states it is based on fact, and he lists the "facts." (03:11:31) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Which are all bogus. (03:11:32) (diane) If that's correct, ron and merlin, why did he list Facts...which were all lies? (03:11:33) (Host-Blu) it's absolutely devious! (03:12:09) (Host-Blu) If that is how people veiwed it, then it would not be a problem, but that is not how people are taking it. (03:12:10) (ron) i haven't been holding a conversation on the Code...all my comments were based uppon my own views diane (03:12:30) (Lynn) Define fact. Much history examined is false, written from one viewpoint. I have a book on it. ¨¨What Your Teacher Never Told You.´´ (03:12:38) (Host-WalksInSpirit) He insists the Priory of Scion is an acutal society that was founded in the time of the Crusades. (03:12:40) (ron) so i don't have any comment on the Code's Facts (03:12:41) (diane) My parish priest suggested we read the darn book. and the koran, too, if we want to (03:12:57) (merlin) the only confusion i see is that the catholic church wants to see this whole f thing put back in the closet ,so to speak . (03:13:19) (Lynn) No it does not. Catholcs have learned their lessons. (03:13:33) (Lynn) The Catholic church even says ´´it is not a sin unless you think it is. (03:13:46) (Host-Blu) Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact (03:13:53) (Lynn) Pope John, who was supposed to be safe, changed the church. (03:13:55) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In fact, the Priory of Scion was invented by a man with the same mental illness as Ral. His name was Plantard. He had a long history of doing this type of thing, plus a criminal history of Anti-Seminic activity. (03:13:58) (diane) I think the Church just wants to have a platform exposing the mis information (03:14:57) (Lynn) My priest, when I converted, was very clear. It is not a sin unless you think it is. Bible says same thing. (03:15:00) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And in 1992 when a "Priory Of Scion" member committed suicide, Plantard was subpoenaed to testify in court, and he testified under oath that the whole thing was an elaborate hoax. (03:15:02) (diane) btw, i'm not a practicing Catholic in the strict sense. lol (03:15:09) (ron) fear of its own present and past corruptions to be brought before the public mind (03:15:42) (Lynn) If you were, the priests would say you were being , what´s that word diane, we are not supposed to be scrupulous. (03:16:49) (diane) right Lynn. my pic is in the dictionary next to the definition of Unscrupulous (03:17:00) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Those Priory Of Scion documents were examined by two experts on the Crusades who had studied the Crusades for over 40 years. Plus, they were examined by linguistic experts, and antiquities experts. All came to the same conclusion. They are fakes. (03:17:15) (Lynn) lol (03:17:33) (ron) i was born a Catholic....i have included the teaching from the Cayce Readings...so i kdon't consider myself a true Catholic...if that is the proper way to put it (03:17:34) (diane) More misinformation...Knights of the Templar, and Opus Dei (03:17:34) (Host-WalksInSpirit) This was done at the request of 60 Minutes. (03:17:44) (merlin) maybe they were payed off to say this. (03:18:06) (diane) We're watered down by New Agism Catholics (03:18:22) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Ed Bradley travelled to France and investigated this himself. And he stood in Plantard's old home, which is at the foot of the Scion mountain. LOL (03:18:29) (Lynn) We are watered down by the changes in the church VAtican II (03:18:35) (Host-Blu) Anything is possible merlin (03:19:05) (diane) I saw that 60 Min. WIS (03:19:12) (diane) right Lynn (03:19:25) (ron) because Catholics and Fundamenalistics always turn on me, look down upon me...i'm another lost soul to them because they know better (03:19:36) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Plus, the Cayce Readings are in direct opposition to the DaVinci Code. (03:20:06) (Host-WalksInSpirit) We'll get to that a bit later. (03:20:10) (Host-WalksInSpirit) It took the dedicated investigative work of a Protestant newspaper editor, Colonel William Stone, to debunk the book’s lurid portrayal of the decadent goings-on between priests and nuns, and the murder of their infant children. The Colonel did his work very well, but generations of readers continued to buy the book and believe it. (03:20:30) (Lynn) When I first became Catholic, I went for literal. It was fun. When I went back to the church, I talked with a priest. It was beautiful. Let my conscious be my guide but, please, consider allowing the church to help form your conscious. Please don´t be scrupulous. OK. I can go for that! I love ritual. (03:20:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Is “The Da Vinci Code” anti-Catholic? Well, sure it is. The book is at least as anti-Catholic as it is anti-Christian. For instance, it’s not only 1.1 billion Catholics who believe Jesus is divine, recite the Nicene Creed and accept the books of the New Testament while rejecting the Gnostic gospels; (03:20:51) (ron) i have an article from the readings on the Mary Magdalene story which is not in accord with the Code book (03:21:06) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Protestants—numbering 800 million worldwide—and Orthodox Christians—in excess of 200 million—are mostly guilty of that same Christian behavior, though they get no mention in “The Da Vinci Code”. Instead, it is “the Church” that does those terrible things. (03:21:25) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Yep, I'm gonna present that next, Ron. (03:21:29) (diane) Yes Lynn! I am a "smells and bells " afficionado too (03:21:47) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Nevertheless, when we Catholics complain about anti-Catholicism, especially in the entertainment media, it is easy to hear us as whiners and special pleaders. Hence an outside opinion is helpful and enlightening. (03:21:59) (ron) it must have to do with the attitude of the Catholic Church entity (03:22:08) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Slightly over a year ago David Denby, a film critic for The New Yorker, wrote a review of a film titled, of all things, “Constantine.” Denby described the movie as a “religio-satanic horror spectacle,” starring Keanu Reeves. At the showing Denby attended, it was being watched “by rapt adults as well as teenagers.” (03:22:39) (Host-WalksInSpirit) After dealing with that particular film, the critic moved on to the difficult, more general topic of how Hollywood deals with matters Catholic. Denby wrote: “Which raises a touchy point. (03:22:50) (Host-WalksInSpirit) ‘Constantine’ turns Catholic doctrine, ritual and iconography into schlock. God’s warrior wins, but is that enough to justify the tawdry, promiscuous borrowing? Will the trashy exploitation of Catholicism in movies ever end?” (03:22:59) (ron) diane, is there such a thing as a Liberal Catholic? (03:23:15) (Lynn) my hand is raised high (03:23:19) (Lynn) my priest approves (03:23:25) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Could any Catholic have asked those questions better? Denby went on to conjure up Jewish and Hindu variations of the frequent Catholic exploitation films: “Imagine a Jewish version of the spectacle—‘Angel,’ starring Vin Diesel, in which God’s messenger stays Abraham’s hand in mid-sacrifice and then earns His approval by lowering himself into cursed pharaonic tombs with tied together prayer shawls. (03:23:25) (Host-Blu) LOL @ Lynn (03:23:44) (diane) lol...the term is cafeteria catholic. pick and choose which tenets to uphold, ron (03:23:49) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In a Hindu version—‘Vishnu,” with Nicolas Cage—Shiva unleashes his snakes on the outskirts of Poughkeepsie and starts a war between truck drivers and apple pickers.” (03:24:06) (ron) lol diane ok (03:24:14) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Denby knew that the strategy of satire is often to take things over the top to show how ridiculous the situation has become, and he did that very well. In conclusion, however, he made a thoughtful and provocative remark: “Somehow I think these projects might be shelved. Yet terrible movies like . . . .’Constantine’ get made and become enormously popular. (03:24:17) (Lynn) All things are lawful unto me but not all things are expedient. Bible quote (03:24:43) (Host-WalksInSpirit) I will leave the issue of blasphemy to experts. But maybe some of the audience should wonder if they aren’t doing the Devil’s work by sitting so quietly through movies that turn wonders into garbage.” (03:25:02) (Host-WalksInSpirit) “The Da Vinci Code”–the book and probably the film–presents Catholics with one set of problems, and those are best dealt with by knowing the facts of our Church’s faith and its history. (03:25:14) (Host-WalksInSpirit) A broader challenge is an entertainment establishment that doesn’t know very much about Catholicism, doesn’t like what it thinks it knows, doesn’t want to learn any more, and can’t leave Catholic faith, practice and imagery alone.
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Post by WalksInSpirit on Jun 8, 2006 17:09:50 GMT -5
(03:25:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) What's Wrong with The Da Vinci Code? (03:25:50) (Host-WalksInSpirit) By Father John Wauck (03:26:05) (Host-WalksInSpirit) As is to be expected, many people have protested against the way in which Jesus Christ, Mary Magdalene, the Catholic Church, and Opus Dei are portrayed in Dan Brown's novel The Da Vinci Code. He has been accused of blasphemy, dishonesty and anti-Catholicism. I suspect, however, that the real problem with his novel lies elsewhere. (03:26:35) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Certainly, the half-baked notions tossed around in The Da Vinci Code about Jesus and Mary Magdalene should not be terribly shocking to anyone. When Dan Brown's fictional characters say that Jesus is not the immortal Son of God but merely a good man, they are only saying what most of the non-fictional people on the planet - Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Unitarians, and non-Christians of all stripes - have always believed. (03:26:56) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Brown's characters are blaspheming on this point, then so is most of the world. In the end, The Da Vinci Code "charges" Jesus, on laughably flimsy grounds, with nothing more nefarious than getting married and not being God - which may be falsehoods, but they are not deliberate distortions of demonstrable historical facts. (03:27:03) (ron) i disagree with that (03:27:21) (Host-Blu) In what way Ron? (03:27:30) (ron) i have read much saying on the Divinity of Jesus from Eastern religions (03:27:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Nor is Opus Dei the unjustly-accused party, the novel's various misrepresentations notwithstanding. The killer albino monk, who commits his crimes precisely when he ceases to take orders from Opus Dei's "president-general" Aringarosa, is clearly not meant to be a typical member, and it becomes clear that this fictional Opus Dei is not a criminal organization but merely a pawn in the hands of the novel's real villain. (03:27:43) (ron) like from India (03:27:51) (ron) for instance (03:27:57) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In truth, most of Mr. Brown's errors regarding Opus Dei seem to reflect sensationalistic tastes and simple cluelessness rather than bad will. (03:28:01) (ron) also from Tibet (03:28:22) (Host-WalksInSpirit) No, the real victim of the novel's distortions is the Roman Catholic Church. The book's numerous factual errors about Christian history all work together for a single purpose: not to defame Jesus Christ or Opus Dei, but rather to make the Roman Catholic Church - in Brown's language, "the Vatican" - appear to be an evil, misogynistic, power-hungry blight on world history. (03:28:50) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Much has been written about Brown's inaccurate descriptions of art, architecture, organizations, and documents, but, besides embarrassing his editors, these mistakes do relatively little harm. Nor is there great harm in the hypotheses and interpretations discussed by some of Brown's fictional characters, which are firmly in the realm of conjecture - fictional conjecture at that. (03:29:17) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The truly serious danger stems from the novel's frequent references to historical events that never happened: matters regarding the Emperor Constantine, the council of Nicea, the Gnostic "gospels," Pope Clement V, the phony "Priory of Sion," the Knights Templars, Leonardo da Vinci, devotion to Mary Magdalene, the execution of witches, and much much more. (03:30:00) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Recently, the actor Jean Reno, who plays the Paris police detective Bezu Fache, said that the novel's version of history is "not the way it was in reality." That needs to be said much more loudly. It is not sufficient to say that the book is "fiction" - because fiction frequently contains historical truths. (03:30:18) (merlin) again in response to 1 of my q's Wis , u said no not one .....brown never did make any factual claims at all. (03:30:32) (Lynn) right on! Fiction is well researched. (03:30:37) (Host-WalksInSpirit) They have all been disproven, Merlin. (03:30:55) (Host-WalksInSpirit) But, he presents them as Facts. (03:30:55) (Lynn) One of the best ways to learn historical is to read good hisorical novels. (03:31:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And that is the dangerous thing. (03:31:08) (Lynn) yes (03:31:18) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Not to mention blasphemy. (03:31:24) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Not every novel is a pure science-fiction fantasy. In the case of The Da Vinci Code, many things that seem to be reliable historical background are entirely imaginary. (03:31:32) (Host-Blu) Yes, this is the part that is creating the confusion (03:32:04) (Host-WalksInSpirit) While these cannot be accidental mistakes - they are deliberate and tendentious - this doesn't mean that Dan Brown necessarily intended to defame Catholics or the Church. (03:32:26) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Perhaps, in order for the plot to make sense, the novel simply needed a villain, and, the luck of the draw having fallen to the Church, Brown proceeded, with poetic license and in the voices of fictional characters, to paint with a very broad brush. What is certain is that, in order to make the Church the villain, he made things up, knowing that he was doing so. (03:33:03) (Lynn) I agree (03:33:17) (Host-WalksInSpirit) When you watch a movie or read a book, your imagination is guided and shaped. Feelings are stirred, questions are raised. Impressions - perhaps false, perhaps true - are formed. Mental associations are created. (03:33:40) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Businesses pay millions of dollars for a few seconds of advertising time during the Super Bowl. It matters little that everyone knows that these ads aren't documentaries; that they are creations designed to sell a product. The message is sent anyway. If a few seconds of screen time are so valuable, imagine the power of hours spent reading a novel or the visual impact of an entire film. (03:33:42) (diane) Golly Gee. You think maybe Brown was focusing on a multi-million dollar profit? (03:33:58) (Host-Blu) me thinks Di (03:33:58) (ron) and he did know that he would get good publlicity on the subject thus the profits are now outstanding (03:34:02) (ron) yes (03:34:08) (Lynn) one of several things wanted, yes. (03:34:25) (ron) he is a smart writer and was able to anticipate the publicity (03:34:35) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In the case in point, Mercedes-Benz is surely delighted that their Smartcar will appear in the Da Vinci Code film; they are confident that it will affect consumers' attitudes. For similar reasons, the Catholic Church has every reason to be less than delighted with its own appearance. (03:34:42) (merlin) i think you're right ron (03:34:50) (diane) Exact-a-mondo ron (03:34:55) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In this case, a false and ugly picture is being transmitted to the whole world, for The Da Vinci Code gives the distinct impression that the Church is not only wrong - as I say, in some sense, most of the world believes that anyway - but wicked and mendacious, a massive criminal enterprise organized to defend a fraud: "the greatest story ever sold," in the words of Teabing. (03:35:10) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Is it unreasonable to suppose that this will affect viewers' attitudes toward the Church? (03:35:35) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The novel's offensiveness may well be unwitting, because Dan Brown appears to be somewhat tone-deaf when it comes to things Catholic. He demonstrates no "feel" whatsoever for the way Catholics think and talk. Indeed, Brown doesn't seem to appreciate what it means to be part of the Church. For Catholics, the Church is much more than a pious association, a religious institution, or a venerable historical reality. (03:35:51) (diane) and if ya can't believe Teabing, who can ya believe? lol (03:36:06) (ron) but..i'd rather have a more objective approach to this commentary...but, of course, this is only my view regarding such interpretations (03:36:15) (Host-WalksInSpirit) For Catholics, the Church is precisely what The Da Vinci Code suggests that Mary Magdalene was: the Bride of Christ that becomes one flesh with Him. In the Church, Christians form part of that one mystical body of Christ. In fact, it was a woman, St. Joan of Arc, who said: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter." (03:36:23) (merlin) i can just imagine all that is in the vatican library / all that which is meant to be hidden from the populace at large . (03:36:36) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Yet Brown writes about this mysterious and holy reality as if it were the Kiwanis Club with a somewhat longer and much nastier pedigree. Given how Catholics understand the Church, it was inevitable that his painfully false portrayal - despite its being fiction - would to be taken personally, for in a very profound way, it is personal. (03:37:09) (Host-WalksInSpirit) By way of analogy, imagine what your reaction would be if a novelist were to tell you, "I am going to write a novel about your family, in which you will be portrayed as a band of criminals and perverts. I am going to use your real name and the names of your parents and grandparents. (03:37:24) (Host-WalksInSpirit) All the information regarding your family - a fair bit of which will, in fact, be true - will be presented as if it were the product of careful historical research. But - not to worry - it's only a novel, and afterwards I'll give you a chance to respond to the falsehoods in my book." (03:37:38) (diane) Vatican Lib. has been open to the public for years now, merlin (03:37:41) (Lynn) If you are famous, someone will do just that. (03:37:57) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Of course, our imaginary author has every right to publish his novel. The question to be raised here is another: would anyone with a sense of decency or responsibility write such a novel and then - when the novel is an international success that is taken far too seriously by many readers - make a movie of it? I find it hard to believe that this is the kind of thing that Sony and Dan Brown are eager to be seen doing. (03:38:01) (Host-Blu) Merlin the same can be said for the records below the sphinx, yet who is ultimately in charge of the timely release of that information? By whose hand and Will will it be released? Only One. (03:38:28) (Host-WalksInSpirit) John Wauck is an American priest of Opus Dei. A native of Chicago, he studied Renaissance history and literature at Harvard University and philosophy at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome, where he has lived for the last ten years. He teaches a course on literature and Christian faith at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross
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Post by WalksInSpirit on Jun 8, 2006 17:12:12 GMT -5
(03:39:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And now, a viewpoint from the media... (03:39:03) (merlin) oh surely n ow diane don't be naive / there are things in there in separate chambers for sure that are meant to be hidden. (03:39:12) (diane) and yes Lynn...famous families are often exploited in books (03:39:14) (ron) right merlin (03:39:20) (Host-WalksInSpirit) From 'Le Temps' (Swiss Newspaper), Geneva, 15.3.2004 (03:39:30) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Best-seller 'The Da Vinci Code' is based on a deception (03:39:47) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Dan Brown's esoteric thriller, which has now appeared in a French translation after selling 6 million copies in its original English version, is a work of fiction that acknowledges the truth of just two established facts: the existence of Opus Dei and the existence of the Priory of Sion. (03:40:05) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The problem is that the latter organisation was invented fifty years ago by an anti-Semitic oddball in neighbouring France... (03:40:06) (diane) perhaps, merlin, it's that the general populace isn't ready for what's in the separate chambers (03:40:22) (Host-WalksInSpirit) by Luc Debraine (03:40:22) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Monday 15 March 2004 (03:40:44) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The Chief Curator of the Louvre, Jacques Saunière, is found murdered in the museum's main gallery. He is stark naked. His corpse is found inscribed within a circle just like that of the famous drawing by Leonardo Da Vinci known as the Man of Vitruvius. (03:41:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) An anagram, as well as a mysterious sequence of numbers, is inscribed on the inlaid parquet floor. Informed of the murder while on a visit to Paris, an American friend of the curator, Robert Langdon, rushes to the scene of the crime. That proves to be a big mistake by this Harvard Professor of Art History: he immediately becomes No. 1 suspect and is forced to flee. (03:41:32) (merlin) i believe that the sphinx to be more of a time capsule to be protected the ravages of time for future generations (03:41:37) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In his flight from the police Robert Langdon, who bears an uncanny resemblance to actor Harrison Ford, takes with him a beautiful young French police cryptographer, Sophie Neveu, who has also been accused of being involved in the violent death of Jacques Saunière. (03:41:46) (Sandy) diane, the world is not ready for a lot of things...too many changes for them to ponder on (03:41:55) (Lynn) I think people are so accustomed to deception and outright lies that its all a blur. The church survives the recent scandal. I think, to deal with the deceptions and lies, thinking people are deciding to believe what they want to believe and follow their inner guidance. This could be a good thing. In these lower worlds, pure truth cannot exist. It would vanish. (03:42:08) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Pursued by a strange police superintendent and an albino monk from Opus Dei, the couple are forced to solve one by one the puzzles left behind at the scene of the crime by the curator just before his death in an effort to shed some light on the truth. (03:42:15) (Host-Blu) Of course it is Merlin, but still the fact remains that allknowledge is under divine control (03:42:21) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And the truth of the matter is that Jacques Saunière is the director of the Priory of Sion, a secret society that, down the centuries, has jealously guarded the secret location of and, above all, the true nature of that relic of all relics: the Holy Grail. (03:42:40) (ron) right blu (03:42:40) (diane) Agree Sandee (03:42:40) (merlin) ok blu (03:42:49) (Host-WalksInSpirit) That - in rough outline - is the plot of the 'Da Vinci Code', Dan Brown's fourth novel. A former English teacher, this American author was completely unknown until last spring. (03:43:05) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Then, after its appearance in the USA in March 2003, his esoteric thriller remained firmly at the top of the best-sellers lists, to the extent of becoming a publishing phenomenon that transcended the usual limitations of its genre: six million copies sold, translated into forty languages (the French version has just been published), not forgetting the film adaptation currently being prepared by director Ron Howard. (03:43:31) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Like Mel Gibson, who is raking in tens (soon to be hundreds) of millions of dollars thanks to the runaway success of the 'Passion of Christ', the success of the 'Da Vinci Code' has made Dan Brown a rich man. And, similarly, the novel has triggered seemingly endless controversies as, like Gibson's film, it is based on Apocryphal Biblical texts that undermine Catholic orthodoxy from within. (03:44:26) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The Cardinal of Chicago, Francis George, has accused Dan Brown of exploiting - 'under the cover of erudition' - the taste of the general public for 'conspiracy theories'. Theologians and art historians have also criticised the author for allowing himself to be inspired by questionable religious sources, and for suggesting that Leonardo Da Vinci scattered secret esoteric codes throughout his works. (03:45:13) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The fact is that Dan Brown makes only two real claims in the book: that Opus Dei and the Priory of Sion actually exist. There's no problem with Opus Dei, even if the way it's described in the novel as a murderous organisation prone to scarifying mortifications prompted a lively response from the organisation itself, which demanded - unsuccessfully as it turned out - that Dan Brown's publisher withdraw the reference to the Opus Dei from the thriller's factual prologue. (03:45:23) (Host-WalksInSpirit) unsuccessfully as it turned out - that Dan Brown's publisher withdraw the reference to the Opus Dei from the thriller's factual prologue. (03:45:45) (Host-WalksInSpirit) See that "factual prologue?" That is where the problem is. (03:46:00) (Host-Blu) yep (03:46:12) (ron) but my interpretaion of Divine Control, is that when humanity is ready, has earned the right to know further mysteries, they will be revealed (03:46:21) (Host-WalksInSpirit) IF Dan Brown meant for the ENTIRE BOOK to be fiction, there should not even BE a "factual prologue." (03:46:28) (Host-Blu) agreed Ron (03:46:31) (Lynn) true (03:46:37) (diane) yes, ron (03:46:44) (Lynn) factual prologue (03:46:51) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The other 'fact' is more problematic. The American author says he believes in the existence of the Priory of Sion, that it was founded in 1099, that its archives are kept at the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, and that its most eminent members have included Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo, Da Vinci and even Jean Cocteau. (03:46:52) (Lynn) its fiction (03:47:06) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Right, Lynn. But, it is presented as FACT. (03:47:18) (Lynn) yes, there´s the rub I agree with you. (03:47:26) ::: Host-Blu is now known as Liar (03:47:38) (Host-WalksInSpirit) A simple Internet search after reading the book suggests a very different line of enquiry: that of a clever deception that, in inspiration, is half-religious and half-Royalist. A farrago created in the 1950s by an anti-Semitic oddball, the Priory of Sion has never actually existed outside the imaginations of a small group of devotees of bogus esotericism. (03:47:39) (Lynn) lol (03:47:43) (Liar) I am a liar...lol, now tell me what is the truth? (03:47:46) (diane) uhoh, what's this? (03:47:53) (Lynn) Let´s discuss it. (03:47:54) ::: Liar is now known as Blu (03:47:59) (Lynn) I´ll send you an email. ok? (03:48:06) (Host-WalksInSpirit) It's also a piece of mystification incidentally that first saw the light of day near Annemasse, and whose crazy meanderings pass through the centre of Geneva. Now being used to lend an air of credibility to an international best-seller, the Priory of Sion has never guarded any secrets other than that of its true identity: a gigantic lie. (03:48:14) (ron) i believe the authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail, was deceived by the documents...and they are scholors (03:48:26) (Blu) LOL, just an example of why its a problem (03:48:45) (ron) but this has been a known fact in France, that those documnets were fake (03:48:48) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Well, 60 Minutes and the experts they had who have studied the Crusades for 40 years were not. (03:48:51) (Lynn) Blu, that is one of my favorite discourses. What is truth? LOL (03:49:10) (Host-WalksInSpirit) 'THE DA VINCI CODE', Dan Brown, Ed. JC Lattès. (03:49:21) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Pierre Plantard, founder of the Priory of Sion, an oddball in search of royal descent (03:49:24) (Blu) OK Lynn, but lets wait till I have some sleep! (03:49:32) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The French fantasist created his own myth using the strange legend of a treasure buried in the environs of Rennes-le-Château. (03:49:46) (Lynn) you bet. It will take me a while to type it up. I am salivating! (03:49:46) (Host-WalksInSpirit) by Patricia Briel (03:49:52) (Blu) LOl (03:49:55) (ron) i have a talk that was presented by Edgar Cayce that is titled, "What Is Truth" (03:50:02) (Host-WalksInSpirit) 'A faultless piece of research', a 'learned' book, a 'history lesson': the American popular press has heaped endless praise on 'The Da Vinci Code', Dan Brown's best-seller which was published in the USA one year ago. But if one takes a closer look at the historical references used by the author - a former English teacher and art historian - one starts to question precisely how justified all this praise really is. (03:50:10) (Lynn) will you let us have it, ron? (03:50:18) (Blu) Oh Cool Ron, back up! (03:50:31) (Blu) I have first dibs ! (03:50:37) (Lynn) ok (03:50:38) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In fact, Brown tries to pass off as the truth a story invented in its entirety by a French anti-Semitic fantasist who died in February 2000: Pierre Plantard. It's a story that begins in the 1950s in Haute-Savoie, at Saint-Julien-en-Genevois, and which involves the treasure of Rennes-le-Château, the Abbé Saunière, the secret genealogy of the Merovingians, mysterious parchments in code and many other things besides. (03:50:40) (ron) i hope to share much of the articles and studies that i have collected...just don't know how to begin (03:51:04) (Lynn) I know the feeling. (03:51:09) (Lynn) I am open. (03:51:14) (Host-WalksInSpirit) OK, folks. We are getting into the REAL Priory Of Scion here... (03:51:20) (Host-WalksInSpirit) 'Dossiers Secrets' (03:51:39) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In his preface, Dan Brown states: 'The secret society of the Priory of Sion was founded in 1099, after the First Crusade. In 1975, parchments referred to as 'Dossiers Secrets' were discovered at the Bibliothèque Nationale [in Paris - Editor's Note], which mention the names of certain members of the Priory, including Sir Isaac Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo and Leonardo Da Vinci'. (03:51:42) (ron) ok WIS...eagerly biting finger nails... (03:52:04) (Host-WalksInSpirit) These events, which Dan Brown presents as the truth, are simply untrue. The Priory of Sion was founded in June 1956 by Pierre Plantard, who at that time was working as a draughtsman at the Chanovin works in Annemasse. As for the 'Dossiers Secrets', they were forged and filed with the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris by Pierre Plantard in the 1960s. (03:52:05) (diane) lol (03:52:14) (merlin) here to ron (03:53:07) (Host-WalksInSpirit) THESE EVENTS, WHICH DAN BROWN PRESENTS AS THE TRUTH.... catch that? (03:53:10) (Blu) forgeries (03:53:23) (Blu) got it (03:53:30) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The French journalist Jean-Luc Chaumeil unmasked Plantard's imposture in the 1980s and published several books on the subject. He also collaborated with BBC2 on a TV programme which was broadcast in 1996, and which presented evidence demolishing the whole story. (03:53:40) (Blu) the 60's were wild times eh Ron? (03:54:00) (Host-WalksInSpirit) But it would seem that Dan Brown has not taken any account of this. The novelist has also not hesitated to make his heroine Sophie Neveu the descendant of the families Plantard and Saint-Clair (a name that Pierre Plantard adopted in 1975), who themselves were descended from the Merovingians, and who are presented in the novel as the descendants of the marriage of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene... (03:54:26) (Host-WalksInSpirit) No political influence (03:54:32) (ron) yes...fun times...especially the 70's for me...and by the mid 80's things died out and i had to do others things (03:54:45) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Born in Paris in 1920, from 1937 onwards Pierre Plantard set up several fictitious movements of an anti-Semitic and anti-Masonic character, the aim of which was to 'purify and renew' France. Described as an oddball in two French Secret Service reports, he did not however appear to have any political influence. (03:55:07) (Host-WalksInSpirit) 'Plantard was a sacristan who lost his faith', Jean-Luc Chaumeil told 'Le Temps'. 'The son of a butler, he dreamed of having royal blood, and lived like a hermit. He acted alone and did not have any connection with extremist anti-Semites.' His bragging did however earn him two spells in prison. (03:55:31) (Host-WalksInSpirit) He was first sentenced at the end of the Second World War for having tried to set up organisations without permission. And in 1953 the Court of Saint-Julien-en-Genevois sentenced him to 6 months in prison for a breach of trust. (03:55:38) (ron) he had two other co-conspirators...but can't remember their names (03:55:48) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In June 1956, Pierre Plantard founded along with some friends the Priory of Sion, an association whose statutes are filed with the Sub-Prefecture of Saint-Julien-en-Genevois and whose registered office is located in Annemasse. (03:57:41) (Host-WalksInSpirit) THERE IS NO HISTORICAL REFERENCE TO THE EXISTANCE OF ANY PRIORY OF SCION BEFORE THAT DATE. According to the founders, the Sion in the name did not relate to Jerusalem but to Mont-Sion, which is very near Geneva. (03:57:58) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The Priory was set up to defend the rights and liberties of the low-rental housing sector, and there is no hint of any of mysteries of any kind in this organisation, which ceased to exist in 1957. (03:58:23) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In the mid 1950s, Pierre Plantard met Noël Corbu, the heir to Abbé Bérenger Saunière of Rennes-le-Château. This was an encounter that was to fire his imagination. Noël Corbu told him the strange story of Abbé Saunière, who was the priest of the small commune at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries. (03:58:49) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The parish was poor, but a mysterious influx of money enabled the Abbé to renovate the church and build a villa as well as a tower. This money came from a treasure that the Abbé had discovered in the surroundings of the village using clues contained in parchments found inside one of the pillars of the church when renovation work was being carried out. (03:59:10) (Host-WalksInSpirit) However, the story of the 'treasure' was just a fantasy dreamed up by Noël Corbu to attract customers to the restaurant that he had opened in the villa. The reality is more straightforward: Abbé Saunière's money came from trafficking in masses, something that earned him suspension from his duties by the ecclesiastical authorities. (03:59:28) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Shortly after this meeting, Pierre Plantard started creating his own myth. In the mid-60s, several mysterious documents were lodged with the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, collected together under the name of the 'Dossiers Secrets' of Henri Lobineau, a pseudonym. (03:59:36) (ron) stealing from the faithful (04:00:02) (Host-WalksInSpirit) These include, in particular, genealogies of descendants of the Merovingian kings copied from parchments belonging to the Abbé Saunière and suggesting a blood relationship between King Dagobert I and Pierre Plantard; documents relating to the founding of the Priory of Sion in 1099 by Godefroy de Bouillon; and a list of Grand-Masters of the Priory going back to the 12th century, (04:00:20) (Host-WalksInSpirit) including Leonardo Da Vinci, Isaac Newton, Victor Hugo, Claude Debussy, and Jean Cocteau. All these documents suggest that the Priory of Sion held the key to the treasure of the Abbé Saunière, and that Pierre Plantard was the direct descendant of Dagobert II, who was assassinated in 679. (04:00:44) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Several of these texts created false trails in Switzerland and Geneva, involving fictitious publishing houses and non-existent Catholic magazines. Jean-Luc Chaumeil subsequently proved that the 'Dossiers Secrets' are in fact forgeries by Pierre Plantard and his accomplice Philippe de Chérisey. (04:00:57) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Coded messages (04:01:16) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Misled by the contents of the Dossiers, the author Gérard de Sède used them to write a book with Plantard's help. 'L'Or de Rennes', which revealed to the French public the connections between the Priory of Sion and the Abbé Saunière, was published in 1967. (04:01:29) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The work reproduced the parchments allegedly discovered by the Abbé, including some that might even enable the treasure to be found. Containing coded messages, they refer to Dagobert II and a canvas by Poussin, 'Les Bergers d'Arcadie', which were thought to provide clues to the location of the treasure. (04:01:46) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In 1971, following a row with Gérard de Sède about the royalties from his book, Philippe de Chérisey publicly admitted that the parchments were his own forgeries. Plantard subsequently confirmed this to Jean-Luc Chaumeil, but subsequently claimed that these forgeries were actually copies of original parchments. (04:02:17) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Interest in this matter ebbed from 1975 onwards, but was revived in 1982 with the publication in English of 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail' [sic], an investigation in book form by three British journalists, Henry Lincoln, Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh. (04:02:37) (Host-WalksInSpirit) This work, which became a best seller in the English-speaking world, accepts the Priory myth and also formulates a bizarre hypothesis: Jesus, married to Mary Magdalene, could have had a child who was born after his crucifixion. (04:02:59) (Host-WalksInSpirit) According to the authors, this child would have been none other than the first of the Merovingians, and Pierre Plantard would have been his direct though distant descendant. But the deception went too far: wisely, Pierre Plantard never actually admitted that he believed in this divine descent, preferring to remain a 'mere' descendant of Dagobert II. (04:03:05) (ron) i thought the three of them etc...did a good job...got the Catholics and the world in a uproar...lol (04:03:40) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Oh, the experts 60 Minutes talked to said this was #2 of the all time hoaxes in history. (04:03:44) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Jean-Luc Chaumeil deplored the appearance of 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail': 'I explained to Henry Lincoln that this whole business was a deception', he says. (04:04:00) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In 1983-84, Jean-Luc Chaumeil revealed the troubled past of Plantard, who resigned from the Priory of Sion on 10 July 1984. Though discredited, he made a reappearance in 1989 with a new mythology about the Priory which, according to him, had been founded in Rennes-le-Château in 1681 and not in Jerusalem in 1099. (04:04:24) (Host-WalksInSpirit) He drew up a new list of the Grand Masters of the Priory, which was to prove his undoing: the list included the name of Roger-Patrice Pelat (an old friend of François Mitterrand) who, at the time of his death, was involved in a financial scandal. (04:04:28) (merlin) namaste' what ten was #1 hoax of history? (04:04:44) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In 1993, while investigating this death, investigating magistrate Thierry-Jean Pierre, today a deputy in the European Parliament, ordered Pierre Plantard's apartment to be searched and there found documents certifying that Plantard was the true King of France. (04:04:50) (Host-WalksInSpirit) They never said. (04:05:10) (Host-WalksInSpirit) merlin, I'm almost done with this article, and I'm gonna post what the Cayce readings say next. (04:05:25) (Host-WalksInSpirit) After close cross-examination, Plantard admitted his imposture and was let off with a severe reprimand. He never again tried to revive the myth of the Priory of Sion. (04:05:38) (Lynn) yay,Cayce. I choose to believe Edgar Cayce. (04:05:40) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Others however have done this for him. Today, according to Jean-Luc Chaumeil, there are about 12 different Priories of Sion!
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Post by WalksInSpirit on Jun 8, 2006 17:15:04 GMT -5
(04:06:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) MARY MAGDALENE (04:06:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Her Akashic Record (04:06:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) by John Van Auken (04:06:16) (ron) this is a very revealing article (04:06:17) (Host-WalksInSpirit) First publised in A.R.E.’s membership newsletter Personal Spirituality, February 2004. (04:06:37) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Several books have been published recently in what amounts to a booming interest in this legendary woman of the Gospels and the first person to see the risen Jesus. Two history-revising themes are coming from these books: (04:06:56) (Host-WalksInSpirit) (1) Mary was not the prostitute tradition presents, and (2) she was Jesus’ lover, possibly his wife, and their descendants are alive today, carrying a rare set of genes. At least one of these books declares itself to be a novel, a work of fiction, meant to entertain, but the others claim to have found evidence to back up these new and contrary ideas from the Coptic texts found in Nag Hammadi, Egypt, known as the Gnostic Gospels. (04:07:03) (Host-WalksInSpirit) known as the Gnostic Gospels. (04:07:15) (Host-WalksInSpirit) But what does the Akashic record say about this fascinating woman and her relationship with Jesus Christ? Let’s review what Edgar Cayce, one of the best readers of the Akasha, had to report. (04:07:41) (Host-WalksInSpirit) According to Cayce’s readings, the soul that was Mary Magdalene (#295 in the Cayce files) began her incarnations in this world as the princess Amliea in Atlantis, with a talent for maintaining the life force in physical bodies through magnetic treatments, presumably using the famed Atlantean crystal. In one case, she actually purified a friend’s body of possession-like influences. (04:08:06) (Host-WalksInSpirit) As a result of being highborn and talented, she experienced the pomp and ceremony that came with such. But according to the Sleeping Prophet’s reading, she did not handle the recognition well, becoming discontented with the people to the point that she began acting against them and their ways, taking names and holding grudges. (04:08:26) (Host-WalksInSpirit) She had the magic within her to channel the higher forces into the Earth realms yet a personality that tended toward contention and strife against any who opposed her. (04:08:41) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In her second major incarnation men were now ruling, unlike Atlantean times when women ruled. She was the temple musician Islta in Egypt during the time of the high priest Ra Ta (an incarnation of Edgar Cayce’s soul). When the high priest was banished for his misdeeds, she counseled Pharaoh to reinstate the priest for the sake of the higher good for all. (04:09:01) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Once Ra Ta was restored, she continued her temple musician duties, which again allowed her to channel the Creative Forces to improve the vibrations in human bodies and minds. The sleeping Cayce said that many of her compositions will be recovered when the “yet uncovered” pyramids are found and opened. (04:09:19) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In the Egyptian incarnation she developed a distrust of men. Also, her sense of discontent with this world and the ideals of most people increased. (04:09:37) (Host-WalksInSpirit) The next significant incarnation was as Mary Magdalene. According to Cayce’s reading of the Akasha, she was beautiful. He said that the drawing by DaVinci, “The Magdalene,” depicts her well. She was 5’4” in height, weighted 121 pounds, with “hair almost red,” and blue eyes. (04:10:05) (Host-WalksInSpirit) She had what Cayce explained as the beautiful blend of her Grecian and Jewish ancestry. But he does go on to say that she did indeed become a courtesan in the Roman courts and a harlot among the men of her people. (04:10:22) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Cayce’s readings also identify her as the Mary who was the sister of Martha and Lazarus, and the woman who, caught in adultery and condemned to be stoned, was let go by Jesus’ statement: “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” Cayce says that she was 22 when Jesus raised her brother from the tomb, causing many changes within her. (04:10:41) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Cayce goes on to explain that she and others found it strange to share life with her recently deceased brother, who once again lived among them. When she was 23, Cayce says that “Christ cleansed her from seven devils: avarice, hate, self-indulgence, and those of the kindred selfishnesses; hopelessness and blasphemy.” (04:11:00) (Host-WalksInSpirit) She joined with Mary, the mother of Jesus, in the disciple John’s household, which was composed of Mary Magdalene, Elois (sister of the Mary that was the mother of John and James), Mary the mother of Jesus, and, of course, the disciple John. There were also many visits from several of the disciples. (04:11:16) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Sadly, Martha, Lazarus, and James “the Lesser” (John’s brother) had all been killed in the first wave of Roman crackdowns on followers of Jesus Christ. Cayce’s readings say that the officials felt that Lazarus had to be killed because he was a walking reminder of Jesus Christ’s miracles. (04:11:32) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Cayce says that, like her brother, Mary Magdalene became a kind of “monument, as a memorial, to the activity of the Christ life upon the life of a soul” in this world because she had been a “sinner” and was purified and energized to a new way of thinking and acting. Her presence was a blessing to many, including Romans who had known her before and after the cleansing. (04:11:49) (Host-WalksInSpirit) This little household lived in John’s summer home on Lake Gennesaret, but the increasing crackdowns forced them to move north to Ephesus, and there they remained until their deaths. (04:12:04) (Host-WalksInSpirit) When asked if Mary Magdalene had been Jesus’ lover, Cayce clearly replied that she had not. Jesus wanted to be, and was, “her savior,” not her lover. But this lover idea is sure selling a lot of books today. (04:12:17) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And the progeny idea latches on to our growing interest in genetic codes and their impact on future generations. But, as exciting as it all might be, it is not true, according to Edgar Cayce’s reading of the Akashic records. (04:12:42) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Her next major incarnation picked up on her royal birth in Atlantis. This time she was the daughter of the last of the Louises, Louis XVI of France. Again she was facing mounting contention from the people ruled by her family. (04:12:54) (Host-WalksInSpirit) When Louis resigned and the rebellion began, she escaped the fate of the rest of her family by fleeing with great stealth to Austria and changing her name to Marie Augusta. (04:13:12) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In her soul’s next incarnation, she joined with Edgar Cayce’s little band of visionaries to help build the Association for Research and Enlightenment. Her name was Mildred Davis. Her special healing talents were once again apparent, as the “sleeping” Cayce selected her to be among the seven initial members of the Glad Helpers Prayer Group. (04:13:30) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Edgar Cayce once had a dream about her in which she announced to everyone in the group that she was going to foretell what the next Cayce reading would say! (04:13:48) (Host-WalksInSpirit) In this incarnation the readings said that she needed to overcome her mistrust of men and her contentious spirit against people with different opinions. He also encouraged her to hold on to her deep understanding of the importance of not condemning self, which Jesus planted in her when he said, “Neither do I condemn thee.” -END (04:14:17) (Lynn) Thank you for that. Some of my friends are convinced Jesus was married to her. I don´t feel right about that. I choose to go with Cayce, He was not her lover. (04:14:18) (ron) beautiful story (04:14:26) (Blu) Wonderful! (04:14:29) (Host-WalksInSpirit) So, there you go... straight from Mary's Akashic Record via Edgar Cayce... NOPE, she wasn't married to Jesus. (04:14:40) (diane) Excellent ! (04:14:44) (Lynn) I feel more right (04:14:51) (Host-WalksInSpirit) They had NO children. (04:14:54) (merlin) thank you Wis for clearing our minds (04:15:08) (Blu) Jesus was a virgo (04:15:12) (Blu) ;-D (04:15:15) (diane) We're vindicated in believing it the divinity of Christ (04:15:16) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Well, this has been on my heart for a while now. (04:15:36) (Lynn) Thank you, Walks. It helps me. (04:15:53) (Host-WalksInSpirit) I saw it for what it was when it first came along... a diabolical trick to lead people astray. people I love and care about. (04:15:53) (Blu) yes WIS has a point to make that he had to make to me, about my complacency about ths movie and book (04:16:14) (Host-WalksInSpirit) It's not just a harmless book or harmless movie, people. (04:16:21) (Lynn) Thank you for doing something. All it takes for eveil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. (04:16:23) (Blu) agreed (04:16:54) (diane) Catholism aside, the question isn't if the Church is fallible, because it is. (04:17:01) (Host-WalksInSpirit) It's a masterminded trick from the pit of Hell, designed to lead people astray. Exactly what Jesus warned us would happen. (04:17:02) (Lynn) yes (04:17:14) (Lynn) and all in these lower worlds is fallible. (04:17:17) (ron) there was another book out during the 70's called, The Passover Plot (04:17:20) (Host-WalksInSpirit) False Prophets, Jesus said. (04:17:40) (diane) And Brown is one of them (04:17:47) (ron) essentially what you might call of having a subtle implication (04:17:56) (merlin) maybe plantard was/ is part of the anti christ movement (04:18:11) (Blu) I have personally encountered people who read this book , intelligent people who beived it was true! (04:18:19) (Host-WalksInSpirit) i remember my Grandmother used to tell me when I was a little boy how pretty and harmless the Devil could make evil look. (04:18:41) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And before you know it, you're sucked in. (04:18:44) (diane) I'd like to explore more about the gullibility of those people, Blu (04:18:58) (Lynn) Well, do you expect him to say ´´Boo´´ . Sometimes he does. lol (04:18:59) (Host-WalksInSpirit) I think so, Merlin. (04:19:10) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Yep, he does, Lynn! LOL (04:19:22) (diane) lol (04:19:26) (ron) but much of it has to do with the parable of the Seeds, i believe (04:19:37) (diane) Good point, ron (04:19:47) (merlin) thank you Wis for an enlightening discussion today / namaste' for now.... (04:22:44) (Host-WalksInSpirit) I don't think I have felt this strongly about something in a while as I do about getting across how HUGE of a diabolical lie this is! (04:23:11) (Blu) You know, I don't normally say things like this, but there is a price for sacrilege (04:23:27) (diane) yeah! your soul! (04:23:36) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Folks, I am telling you... this book and movie is blasphemy. (04:23:48) (Blu) yep (04:24:04) (Blu) in the back of my mind I don't really think this guy wrote this book for money (04:25:31) (ron) did Jesus remove blasphemy from Magdalene? (04:25:44) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Yep. (04:26:03) (ron) and she ended up as the first Glad Helper (04:26:08) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Yep (04:26:20) (Blu) blows my mind (04:26:21) (diane) blasphemy is an old word, an old concept. Do folks even know what it means these days? I doubt it (04:32:22) (Lynn) There are so many scandals, false teachings obviously false, and so much naivety being stripped away,. It might be a good thing. People are learning not to believe anything. They must think for themselves. People may even begin looking within for the answers. That will sure make the Devil mad! (04:33:08) (diane) Brilliant bit of reasoning there, Lynn (04:33:18) (Blu) I have nothing against church, but they don't like me (04:33:21) (ron) the devil belongs in hell...that where he belongs (04:33:49) (Lynn) Blu, I have had the same problem. (04:33:52) (ron) bad guy (04:33:57) (diane) None of the churches like us! (04:34:13) (diane) tough darts for them. lol (04:34:18) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Well, we don't go to church actively. We'd like to, but with Blu's schedule, we really can't. But, I tell you this... I believe every word between those black leather covers of my old Bible. (04:34:46) (ron) i'm statisfied with just the Bible (04:35:04) (ron) and the Cayce readings to help me thru my ignorance (04:35:28) (Host-WalksInSpirit) I try my best to live it, too. (04:35:38) (Host-WalksInSpirit) And to love everybody. (04:35:50) (Blu) You know I have had some power experiences and I have to use those as my guide to what I accept as truth (04:36:05) (Lynn) Well, perhaps you folks are lucky. I don´t believe that easily. I do not believe every word. But I do believe Jesus. I have met him and I know he is real to me. (04:36:09) (Blu) one for each of us (04:36:21) (Host-WalksInSpirit) Hey, that is all that is required, Lynn! (05:23:35) (ron) this was a very enjoyable chat session WIS...along with our continued conversations (05:23:47) (WalksInSpirit) Thanks Ron! (05:24:18) (ron) i didn't forget about you Blu and the part you played...:) (05:24:41) (Blu) Why Thank you Ron (05:41:31) (diane) Good for you WIS & Blu, to expose DVC today! (05:41:44) (WalksInSpirit) Thanks Diane!
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